Re: Running code

[Loa Andersson <loa.andersson@utfors.se>]

All,

I'm not going to argue this much, but can't resist this one.

There is a fundamental difference between saying "we work as
individuals" and "we represent extra-IETF organization interests".

If it is a problem it needs to be fixed, not only in the NomCom,
but everywhere.

And...

how does limit to 2 from the same organization get around the
senior - junior issue? Shouldn't it be just 1?

How do you define "organization" - are 2 members from FOO Forum
from the same organization? are 5? What happens if one of the
members of the NomCom changes job during the period, there by
creating a group of 3 from FOO Inc? Are 2 people from a single
European country a problem? Are 6 from the US?

Note - I'm not arguing that this is not something that should be
fixed. I'm asking for arguments that it is the right thing to do.
And would like to see something more than the hand waving I've seen
so far.
Are there proof that people from the same organization has acted in
a way that has been harmful to the IETF, more than people representing
different organizations?

I'm all for diversification - if you try to run the argument that we
want participation NomCom from as many organizations and background
as possible because this is a good thing I would be far more
receptive.


/Loa

Robert Elz wrote:

>     Date:        Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:22:06 +0200
>     From:        Loa Andersson <loa.andersson@utfors.se>
>     Message-ID:  <3D8ACC9E.6060300@utfors.se>
>
>   | the normal response to this is "we don't do companies, people
>   | act as individuals". While I realize that that the "company aspect"
>   | could be important in this context and needs to be fixed, it could
>   | have an impact in other contexts as well. If it is fixed here, we
>   | need to "fix it" elsewhere, or clearly motivate why it is a problem
>   | here and only here.
>
> That one is easy to see.   In (essentially) all other IETF activities,
> all is done in the open.   If people who happen to come from the same
> organisation start acting in concert to achieve a result (a practice
> not totally unheard of, though fortunately not all that common) then
> it usually becomes quite obvious, quite quickly, and everyone else can
> take that into account - that they're acting together doesn't make their
> point invalid, but it does raise some suspicions, so we can be just that
> bit more careful.
>
> The nomcom doesn't work like that, all its activities (or all that
> matter) are done behind closed doors.   There's no way the community
> can tell who is doing what - and whatever we eventually decide the
> role of the liaisons is, I certainly can't see that it should be to
> report back to the bodies they're from (or the rest of the community)
> on who is voting which way inside the nomcom.
>
> Even if we assume that everyone acts in entirely the best interests of
> the IETF, and we currently have no reason to assume that anything
> different is happening, it can be very difficult for members of the
> same organisation where one might happen to be senior, and the others
> much more junior, and perhaps not completely willing to oppose their
> senior colleague (and note: I know none of the people concerned this
> time, and have no idea what their internal dynamics might be).
>
> So, I agree with Brian, this is one that we should be fixing.   A limit
> of 2 nomcom members from one organisation seems like it should do no
> harm - the random selection of members from the pool of volunteers can
> just go on generating more numbers, with any that were picked, but come
> from the same organisation as 2 earlier selections being ignored.
>
> Obviously, this to apply to the next nomcom selected, not this one.
>
> kre


--
    Loa Andersson
    Chief Architect,
    Utfors Research, Architecture and Future Lab (URAX)
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