Re: [IESG-6] IESG/IAB overlaps (Re: IESG issues with draft-ietf-nomcom-rfc2727bis-07)

[RJ Atkinson <rja@extremenetworks.com>]

On Wednesday, Oct 8, 2003, at 04:11 America/Montreal, Harald Tveit 
Alvestrand wrote:
> I believe the issue Ted brought up was triggered by the presence in 
> both bodies of the IAB chair, and that he thought the description for 
> the IETF chair was adequate.
>
> Another possible fix, covering even more people:
>
> "Some people serve on both the IESG and IAB as part of their role, 
> such as the IETF Chair, the IAB Chair and the IAB-IESG liaisons. Apart 
> from these, no person should serve both on the IAB and on the IESG."

That is too confusing, IMHO. Also, I don't know what that version
is trying to fix relative to the much simpler text that I had proposed.
So I suspect that I am not following some subtlety of meaning that
is obvious to you (and others ?).

Maybe you could clarify your specific concerns with my
proposed text (quoted below) ?

> BTW, RFC 2850 says that the IETF Chair is a "full member" of the IAB 
> (section 1.1), but not a "sitting" member (section 1). Well-covered 
> ground.

Right.   Which is why my proposed text specifically used the phrase
"sitting member" as the thing that an IESG person could not
concurrently be.  My reference to "ex officio" was NOT in the
proposed new text, but by way of explanation for this mailing list.

In at least US & UK English, "ex officio" means that someone
has some role/position as a derivative of holding a different office.
It does not necessarily mean that any "ex officio" person has
lesser status than other persons.

If the IETF has tried to alter the standard definition for "ex officio",
in RFC-2850 or elsewhere, that is very unfortunate because it means
that the IETF is not using standard English (per Websters or the OED;
my own dictionary at home is the OED).

Just to be crystal clear, my ENTIRE proposed replacement text is:

	"No person should serve both as a sitting member of the IAB
	 and as a member of the IESG."

My text permits liaisons.   It also permits IETF Chair to be part
of the IAB, but does not permit the IETF Chair to be a sitting
member of the IAB.

Confusedly yours,

Ran


> --On 7. oktober 2003 13:06 -0400 RJ Atkinson <rja@extremenetworks.com> 
> wrote:
>
> > > "No person should serve both on the IAB and as an Area Director, 
> > > except
> > > the IETF Chair whose roles  as an IAB member and Area Director of the
> > > General Area is set out elsewhere".
> >
> > That proposed fix seems problematic.  An alternative phrasing,
> > which I prefer (yet also suspect is consistent with Ted's intent)
> > might be:
> >
> > 	"No person should serve both as a sitting member of the IAB
> > 	and as a member of the IESG."
> >
> > Kindly recall that the IESG Chair (== IETF Chair) is not a
> > "sitting member of the IAB", neither now nor in the past,
> > but is instead an "ex-officio member of the IAB".